tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1630866498774359160.post1400430901453103617..comments2024-03-27T18:03:56.756+00:00Comments on In My Lady's Chamber: The 14th Century bust: Part 2Miriamhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07941566213672427040noreply@blogger.comBlogger6125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1630866498774359160.post-72498880188050115242020-01-12T11:08:20.231+00:002020-01-12T11:08:20.231+00:00Oh, I totally agree. However, that was kind of my ...Oh, I totally agree. However, that was kind of my point -- flat-chestedness and/or compressed into a columnar shape rather than hourglassy was the fashion for much of the 14th Century.<br /><br />Yes, as in all eras different women will have had different abilities to conform to that fashionable ideal based on their personal bodyshape. However, a curvy woman would still (if she wanted to be fashionable) attempt to conform to that fashionable silhouette by wearing breast bindings, support garments or clothes in general that emphasised flatchestedness and a columnar silhouette. She would not try to *emphasise* an hourglass silhouette.Miriamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07941566213672427040noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1630866498774359160.post-37042254641147380642019-12-29T23:07:42.827+00:002019-12-29T23:07:42.827+00:00Another possibility is that, since this is the ...Another possibility is that, since this is the 'fashionable' silhouette of the period, consequently all women are portrayed in that manner. Regional sculptors of tomb effigies also tended to have a stylised method of working, as did the creators of memorial brasses, unrelated to the individual figure or face of the woman portrayed. The only exception I can think of is the effigy of Philippa of Hainault, Queen of England (1369), showing the realistic figure of an older woman without any attempt at fashionable slenderness. In this case, it is possible that Jean of Liege, the sculptor, was creating a close likeness of the queen at the request of her husband, Edward 111, as they had been a devoted couple. Gillian Stapleton https://www.blogger.com/profile/01038795113700668893noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1630866498774359160.post-48606411773073504032014-04-04T21:54:32.859+01:002014-04-04T21:54:32.859+01:00Please don't worry in about chiming in late. A...Please don't worry in about chiming in late. All comments are appreciated, especially ones that make me think!<br /><br />I think weight/size/nutrition definitely has something to do with it. I also wonder about the impact of the high levels of hormonal contraception use in modern Western populations, which often can cause bust growth. Another possibility is that the 'ideal' age for a woman in medeival Europe was considered to be 14 years of age (e.g. in the 'Pearl' poem) -- with poor nutrition and a generally slimmer size, that's barely pubescent.<br /><br />That all said, pregnancy was much more prevalent (and prevalent earlier) in medieval Europe (even if the Hajnal line theory has shown that its prevalence/earliness was not as great as the stereotype would suggest). So, there would be more post-pregnancy bodies, which are generally heavier and bustier (though in a different way to an overweight/obese person, or a skinny person with contraception-induced bust growth).<br /><br />Glad you like the blog (and sorry to not post much recently -- I'm currently being consumed by grad school, but hope to get back to costuming and reenacting once my thesis is in!).Miriamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07941566213672427040noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1630866498774359160.post-66287877445013105822014-04-04T21:06:47.205+01:002014-04-04T21:06:47.205+01:00I know I'm chiming in *very* late here, but is...I know I'm chiming in *very* late here, but isn't there some possibility that part of this had to do with the fact that people in general were much slimmer in period than they are now? Nutrition wasn't a known thing, parasites were an issue, etc. Putting aside whatever theories exist about the impacts of animal hormones on our bodies in the modern era (which I'm not sure I buy into, fwiw), our diet is very different now, and the average silhouette in the 14th century was very slim all over. Slimmer hips, arms, necks, etc. We Americans are especially heavy the past few decades, and therefore have much larger busts.<br /><br />Loving your blog, btw!Diane Donaldhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15747934765004704310noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1630866498774359160.post-15360037509168923432013-01-25T18:23:54.373+00:002013-01-25T18:23:54.373+00:00You make a very valid point.
Although, I wonder h...You make a very valid point.<br /><br />Although, I wonder how much effigies are supposed to look like someone lying down as often there are other gravity-defying details, e.g. the drape of the veils, that suggest they were carved from a model (physical or mental) of someone standing.<br /><br />The other point is that one of the key parts of Robin Netherton's "gothic fitted dress" method is making the occupant lie on their back during fitting to enable the bosom to be pushed up further. In those photos the bust is *flatter* than when standing upright but by no means *flat*. E.g.: http://cottesimple.com/tutorials/curved-front-seam/Miriamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07941566213672427040noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1630866498774359160.post-50341327016307964062013-01-20T17:04:04.932+00:002013-01-20T17:04:04.932+00:00Of course, grave effigies can be misleading about ...Of course, grave effigies can be misleading about the appearance of the bust, even if they are very realistic, because they show the person *lying down*, and the bust always looks small when one is lying down because the fullness tends to move sideways. So the flat busts on grave effigies may overstate the flatness of a woman's real appearance in life.Cathy Raymondhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04580681386443534011noreply@blogger.com